It’s an open secret in Hollywood — and your place on it can mean the difference between career life or death.

It’s “The List”: a constantly shifting roll call of the most bankable actors in Hollywood. While the powers that be would never admit to it, such an index does exist, as verified by writer-director Ron Shelton on the latest episode of The Hollywood Reporter‘s It Happened in Hollywood podcast

“[It’s] every studio or network or now streaming company’s list of actors or actresses who trigger financing — who are bankable,” explains Hollywood veteran Shelton as he breaks down the making of his 1988 baseball classic, Bull Durham.

“The problem is everybody’s list is a little different,” he adds. “Everybody’s list has Dwayne Johnson and Tom Cruise on it, but the list changes every week, every month. You’re auditioning women, and they may be on the list today and off the list tomorrow. It’s unfair to them, and it’s unfair to the director, the producer, the casting director. But you got to deal with this moving target.”

When Shelton was casting for Durham, his directorial debut, he had already secured a then-up-and-coming actor named Kevin Costner to play Crash Davis, his male lead. There were several actresses in contention for the female lead — Annie Savoy — but Shelton’s first choice was Susan Sarandon.

That posed a problem. After several box-office misfires, Sarandon had fallen off the list.

“For some reason, the studio said Susan Sarandon was not on the list, which made no sense. And her agent kept calling. I couldn’t tell her she wasn’t on the list because I’d be giving away a studio secret. Then I’d be in trouble. So I’m lying. I’m trying to make my first movie and I’m lying out of the gate,” Shelton recalls.

Determined to land the part, Sarandon flew in from Italy, where she was living at the time, and went directly from the airport to the Burbank studios where the film was in pre-production, set to start filming in just two weeks.

“She shows up dressed to kill in a red-and-white tube dress. She looked like a million bucks and she just got off a plane, a 10-hour flight,” Shelton recalls. “She comes in, and I have Kevin there. She’s pushing me and Kevin around verbally and physically. She’s off book, meaning she knows her lines. She’s Annie. She was Annie.”

Sarandon left the offices and the key players found themselves in a quandary. “We sat there and poured a drink, I remember Kevin and and the producers: ‘What are we going to do? She’s not on the list. She’s so great.’”

Their problems were solved just an hour later, when the head of the studio called saying Sarandon “looks great” and signed off on giving her the role.

“I found out later she went right from the audition to the studio, Orion Pictures on Avenue of the Stars,” says Shelton. “She worked her way up and down the hallways until she found all the executives that matter. … She pretended she had business there. … [Then she] flew back to Italy and by the time she landed, she had the part.”

Listen to the full Bull Durham episode of It Happened in Hollywood featuring Ron Shelton now, and be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to catch every episode.